Help with Extended Kithkin
I'm planning on playing Kithkin at the upcoming PTQ, so I scoured the net looking for a fun little build to bring. Here's one that I kinda like:
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Wizened Cenn
3 Ajani Goldmane
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
4 Zealous Persecution
4 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Revoke Existence
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Unfortunately I don't have any Fetid Heaths, Mutavaults, or Wilt-Leaf Lieges. So here's where I need help:
- Does anyone have any of the 3 cards I mentioned that I could borrow for the PTQ?
- If not, what would be suitable replacements? I guess I can replace Zealous Persecution with either Honor of the Pure or Brave the Elements, and replace "Swamp" lands with simple Plains or Rustic Clachans
- Is there any new tech in Scars of Mirroden or Mirroden Besieged that might be fun to add to either main or side?
ive got alot of these ill pull out as many of them i can find for yea
Would suggest some enchantment removal in the sideboard. Prismatic Omen and Bitterblossom are key players in the format. As well as hating out pyromancers ascension, splinter twin and other random jank. Your options are warpreist of thune or wispmare if you want it on a white creature.
Is that in addition to the Revoke Existance or instead of? One of the things I like about Revoke Existence is the ability to hit both Enchantments and Artifacts.
Yeah I think the revoke existence are money. Thune is ok, but artifacts are an issue atm. As well, revoke have been good in testing against the format so far.
Though if I could comment on the build itself. I think that relying on the Kithkin tribal may not be the best plan. Maybe just choose the best Kithkins, like Figure or meadowgrain etc. Knight of the White Orchid can make a huge difference and it's not a Kithkin and means you don't have to run a ridiculous amount of lands, like 25!!! Isn't this aggro? :P
The black seems to be just for Zealous. I would drop black and run honor of the pure (wizened cenn has a lot more main deck hate in the format than honor. running both are bad tempo) main in that slot and Choking Fumes from the sideboard to lay the -1/-1 counters during their attack phase. Besides Cenn doesn't make your Spectral tokens any bigger.
4 Cloudgoats are too many and Elspeth Knight Errant is way better than Ajani. Elspeth's +3/+3 and flying is winning, where Ajani's +1/+1 vigilance is waiting to win as you try to pump your guys enough turn after turn to get past their land-bound defense. And that one soldier token is pretty darn good with an honor or two. Again a case where Honor does almost what Ajani does for cheaper. Less chance getting Ajani past a leak.
Single also, where are the Kitchen Finks? Double also, Oblivion Ring main is super important and it's not even in your side.
I have lots more thoughts on this as I played WW in the last block so if you trust my experience then I can sum it all up by saying; play the best cards, don't worry if they are Kithkin.
Other good sideboard options are Stillmoon Cavalier or maybe Mirran Crusader now. Pithing needle is not bad also. Maybe Celsetial Purge over Burreton? Wiltleaf in the side seems random. Luminarch Ascension might be good, but I still need more testing to see if there is enough control in the format to make it worth while.
ack, I hope that's not too much to digest Art.
sorcery speed enchantment removal for 2 is not going to win you any games. Knight of White Orchid is fine as a replacement for Knight of meadowgrain in a non-kithkin list. What deck does choking fumes beat??? How is that helping your plan to tap out every turn and kill them with tempo threats? Elspeth is not getting your guys out of volcanic fallout/firespout range although it is a fine 1/2 of, I prefer ajani as a follow up to spectral process. Oblivion Ring again is 3 mana sorcery speed removal and not going to help threaten lethal by turn 5/6 so it's hard to justify running more than a couple if you go that route. This guy ran one.
Top 4 PTQ kithkin list for reference
He used both war priests AND wispmares. You need a threat stapled onto the destroy effect. You wont win unless you can keep up tempo and threats. Tapping 2 mana for sorcery speed 1 for 1 removal vs fae and NOT dropping a threat is just timewalking yourself.
I would also reference this non kithkin WW list which sports the very cool 4 Brave the Elements blowout for 1 mana which is a much safer bet than zealous persecution for your "trick" slot.
Don't run luminarch, 5cc has esper charm main and fae has token fliers to keep you off counters. It might be mediocre vs UW controll but you have better options there too.
Some people love Luminarch, but it is a pretty boom or bust card, imo. Sometimes it is sick and other times, it is almost completely useless. In most cases, you would be better off running something that does what it is supposed to do, rather than a card that is going to take splash damage from rampant enchantment removal and be unreliable in matches that you bring it in for.
No black means that you can run leonin arbiter and/or splash green for Teeg, which will be nice versus lots of stuff. The black seems like a pretty pointless splash anyway.
Hate bears+brave the elements=fun times.
Thistledown liege is the better one too, isn't it? Then again, I am basing that off of eot thistledown–->mirrorweave--->lolswing0
"A great value of antiquity lies in the fact that its writings are the only ones that modern men still read with exactness."
Wow Mirroweave, I almost forgot about that card. I used to love running it in my Kithkin deck, because turning Spectral Procession tokens into a bunch of Wizen Cenn's was full of lols :)
But getting back on topic, I do like the idea of Leonin Arbiter or Teeg in the sideboard vs the Scapeshift matchup. I also like the other Kithkin deck that Nathan posted (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36288), and I agree with him that having removal+threat on board fits better with this style of deck than just straight up removal.
So going forward, I'll sleeve up the deck listed in that link and give it a try. Here's the list for those that don't want to click on the link:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
2 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Brave the Elements
2 Path to Exile
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Spectral Procession
4 Windbrisk Heights
3 Pithing Needle
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 War Priest of Thune
2 Celestial Purge
I agree, I love Brave the Elements. 2 or 3 in your deck is the perfect number.
I don't believe I said Revoke will win you any games. I said they have been good in testing which I still maintain to be true. I also concede that luminarch is hit or miss, though when it works it really works and I still can't think of a better card vs UW. I am open to suggestions.
The feeling I am getting is that WW players never have enough sense to hold back vs red or anyone running board control. Try holding stuff in your hand and putting things down which force them to waste their control spells. Stalwart doesn't do that, Figure of destiny and student of warfare do. Pretty simple really but often overlooked. I hear the response "if you are not over-committing then your not being aggressive enough", or "you've just timewalked yourself.". To which I say hogwash. You can play an aggro list and not be a nutter that always dumps his hand. Choose to act in a controlling manner. Where are the ratchet bombs? What happened to the theory of transformative decks that can go from aggro to aggro-control or just plain control?
Just because I want to win doesn't mean I'm going to give up after turn 4 or 5 because I haven't won yet.
Is the idea; well I just lost game one to someone with more board hate and better threats so I should be more aggressive or as aggressive as game one? Sounds like folly or the definition of insanity.
If no o-ring how do you deal with the top decks game one? You just auto scoop? I like winning game one. This is why I play aggro. But more importantly what did you plan on doing turn 3 in this deck anyways? Spectral is your only hit on turn 3 and laying more than one creature unless one of them is forge tender is just fallout bait. I can guarantee that 90% of the decks will have something really juicy and dangerous to remove on your turn 3 drop, and that minor drop in tempo will not lose you the game. Being out positioned by a nasty enchantment, plainswalker, creature or artifact will lose you the game. While having 3 2/2 flyers out on 3 is nice if your honor is online, it's not going to happen that you always would rather lay threats than rely on your threats being more dangerous once in play. Like for example playing all your honors before you drop a single creature, and ratcheting and o-ringing their side of the field. "but that's not aggro!!!" they scream at me.
Call it "rope a dope". Again I will concede that running all aggro game one with all the control in the SB isn't bad either. It just means that you have to be ready to side in a crap load of cards every game 2.
Fumes may or may not ruin faeries, weenies, elves, etc etc. The counters stay and once they see it they play around it as long as you have card in hand. Just hold a land.
All 3 of the starcity lists are very different in their main deck creature choices, which goes to show that their position in the list had little to do with a perfect list and more to do with them being pretty good at magic.
I like Whispmare much more than Thune and I still don't see anything to deal with artifacts. Hello swords! Hello wurmcoil! There will be decks there that run artifacts.
"Don't run luminarch, 5cc has esper charm main and fae has token fliers to keep you off counters. It might be mediocre vs UW control but you have better options there too." Sure that makes sense, if you are not running ratchet bombs to wipe tokens and anything to deal with bitter blossom. Again, transformative sideboard means that WW becomes MWC. But to the 5cc comment…I don't see a single 5cc list in the PTQ circuit and the fae comment has me grinning; because who would side luminarch in vs faeries? That's just ridiculous and no one would do that, so it is a pointless concern and an argument based on fancy.
Here's the thought process and then you guys can lambaste me some more. You are expecting to face faeries. Let's also ignore the fact that most people here are assuming you lose game one. You know that they want to drop blossom turn 2. You know that they want to champ at your EoT and/or champ/flash stuff right after draw. Are you going to put a Thune (not game one he's in your side) down turn 2 when you are on the play? Probably not because you want to put down something aggressive. Playing thune would just force them to kill the thune and wait to play blossom. You have one more turn before they look at your hand and toss what ever hate you have to the bottom of your library. At that point it doesn't matter if you have thune or revoke or anything else. Except maybe a path which while stalling their faerie engine adds a land for their next turn. They are going to see your hand on your third draw.
While you should never assume you will have perfect draws, you always have to assume that your opponent will.
Anyways, choose to ignore all of that if you like. It sounds like a bunch of pointless concerns to me. Worries based on the assumptions that the person playing this deck or one like it has to be retarded and therefore can not predict what the opponent will do or has available to him/her.
Also it is apparent that i either type really fast or have too much time on my hands to post novellas on the Quantum forums.
love you all :)